Hey Mike,

Exactly what part of this quote from my earlier post is “wrong?”

“The cast of an individual show cannot decertify the union that represents them under the current TV/Theatrical or Exhibit A agreements. Under the NLRA, the right to call for a decertification election belongs to the collective bargaining unit, which, in both cases, under Exhibit A and the TV/Theatrical contract, is the entire union, not the separate cast.”

Please note the use of the phrase “under Exhibit A and the TV/Theatrical contract.”

Repeat the following as necessary, until it sinks in:

Exhibit A and TV/Theatrical don’t cover basic cable.

I realize you’re trying to change the subject here, but it isn’t going to work. Unfortunately, your attempt at misdirection only exposes more of your ignorance. As far as an individual basic cable show cast decertifying, I gave you too much credit for reading what I wrote and understanding it rather than just reacting to it.

You point out the idiocy of your own argument when you say:

“In the instance of “Kyle” the cast contemplated decertifing AFTRA and if 30% of the cast of that show, signed a petition to decertify, a decertification election could’ve taken place, as the contract for that show had expired or was about to expire.”

Given that you acknowledge the AFTRA basic cable contract is a “show by show” deal, when do you think show contracts expires?

I know you don’t like to waste time actually thinking about things, so I’ll give you a hint. The answer is the early of two events: the cancellation of the show or after three years. Kyle X Y ran three years. Exactly when were they going to hold a representation election, Mike?

I realize you had to try to shift focus away from TV/Theatricals and Exhibit A to talk about Kyle X Y because you figured out your other example, the Bold and The Beautiful, is covered under the general AFTRA daytime contract and would require 30% of the entire union membership to decertify. Your silence in defending that example was damning.

(And lets just skip over that “shorter period” business about elections. That was just embarrassing for you, and there’s really no need to revisit your ignorance there.)

And then you finish with this gem:

“WCHS-TV in West Virginia voted to decertify AFTRA, did 30% of the membership have to sign a petition?”

I realize that my earlier post was far too long for you and by the time you finished it you had already forgotten what I wrote at the start, so I’ll end with it here.

“Under the NLRA, the right to call for a decertification election belongs to the collective bargaining unit.”

Was the entire union the collective bargaining unit at that station, Mike? Or was it just the people who worked there? You tell me.

Your attempts at obfuscation aside, the fundamental points remains the same:

Decertification was not a legitimate option for Kyle XY or Bold and Beautiful. Raising them as examples of what might happen only demonstrates that you don’t know the first thing about the subject. A show done under Exhibit A will require 30% of the entire union membership to sign a petition to hold the election. A show done under one of AFTRA’s basic cable contracts could only be held in the narrow time window just before the contract term ends, or afterward, if there is no new contract signed.

If you are going to claim that decertification is a legitimate option, you need legitimate examples.

Explain to me what is so hard about this stuff that you just don’t get it. I’ll be glad to help.

A Note To Ed – The salting of a unit with anti-union agents is as old as the NLRA, and undoubtedly older. There are probably cave paintings at Lasceaux that explain the same tactic. Back in my day, one of the key issues raised in station decert campaigns (and there were a couple, although not nearly as many of them as there seem to be now) was pension and health coverage. I spent a lot of time writing informational pieces comparing AFTRA and specific company plans. The advantage always came down to AFTRA on portability; few folks in the unit saw themselves spending their entire careers in Saginaw or Portland or Jacksonville, and when they moved on, they wanted their benefits to go with them. AFTRA was usually the better choice if that was important to them. An odd byproduct of consolidation of ownership at broadcast outlets has been to reduce the impact of portability. Nowadays, if you move, your about as likely to go to another station in the same chain as not, so portability is less of a problem. That’s got to hurt the union in the representation election.

You wouldn’t know if Fred W was right or wrong. He is wrong though. His entire first paragraph is wrong. He believes that 30% of the entire AFTRA membership is needed to decertify AFTRA as the collective bargaining agent for an individual TV show. That’s absurd. AFTRA negotiates their basic cable contracts on a show by show basis with employers. Each so has its own contract. I’m not a labor lawyer so of course I don’t know the intricacies of labor law and decertification elections.

But I do know that Unions that have already negotiated a contract for employees can be subjected to a decertification election, near the expiration of the contract. That what I was saying and that’s a fact. In the instance of “Kyle” the cast contemplated decertifing AFTRA and if 30% of the cast of that show, signed a petition to decertify, a decertification election could’ve taken place, as the contract for that show had expired or was about to expire.

In 2005
WCHS-TV in West Virginia voted to decertify AFTRA, did 30% of the membership have to sign a petition?
Ditto, the NBC correspondent that also voted to decertify AFTRA that same year.
or KIRO-AM or KIRO-AM or any of the other workers at TV and Radio station that have voted to decertify AFTRA over the years.

–

Ed. Comment – Decertification campaigns are usually waged by companies against unions, though, as we’ve seen, sometimes individuals within a union try to wage them for all sorts of misguided reasons.

In broadcast shops the companies (particularly GE/NBC) hire a couple of younger people and make them promises including promotions if they convince their co-workers to vote the union out. On occasion it works. One of the leaders of the NBC decertification called AFTRA a few months later to complain that he was being forced to work 14 hour days on a regular basis with no overtime or comp time, and admitted the decert was one of his biggest mistakes ever.

I’m not going to be redundant. Just go and re-read nearly EVERY post following any of your ludicrous claims.

People far smarter than I have already taken care of your request to me.

Repeatedly.

The cast of an individual show cannot decertify the union that represents them under the current TV/Theatrical or Exhibit A agreements. Under the NLRA, the right to call for a decertification election belongs to the collective bargaining unit, which, in both cases, under Exhibit A and the TV/Theatrical contract, is the entire union, not the separate cast. The fact that there may have been some unhappy actors on a specific show does not mean they had any chance at pursuing decertification, so you can’t really put much stock in such talk, and you shouldn’t cite them as evidence that decertification was a possibility. The fact that those unhappy actors talked about decertification just means they know as little about the subject as you do.

Furthermore, decertification elections can only take place within certain specified times; 60-90 days before a collective bargaining agreement terminates or where a CBA has expired and a new one has not been ratified. (In other words, SAG could face a legitimate decertification action right now on TV/Theatricals, and AFTRA could not on Exhibit A. SAG could also face decertification on all those other contracts that MF let expire, too.)

And just so we’re straight on it, the only restriction in the NLRA on holding representation elections is that you cannot hold more than one within 12 months. This means is you have a successful decertification election, you cannot certify a new representative for one year.

I don’t care how “aware” you are that the “period can be shorter” in certain circumstances. Ms. Joosten was simply pointing out the reality (you ought to meet reality sometime, maybe you can be friends) that decert actions often take years to play out, during which time representation of the employees is in limbo, and, given the provision that an employer may disregard the union if he has credible evidence that the union lacks the support of a majority of the employees, it can be worse than limbo.

In other words, you were claiming you are “aware” of something that really doesn’t exist. The law says there can be no new election for twelve months. There’s nothing that says it can be “shorter than two years” if the contract expires. That’s just hooey.

You really ought to try to inform yourself about things before you try to spread disinformation in front of people who know better. I realize that it takes more time to correct you than it does for you to make things up, and that forcing you to read these corrections taxes your limited attention span, but these long posts of mine wouldn’t be necessary if you got things right the first time. Give us both a break, OK?

Please, explain where I’m unbelievably misinformed regarding SAG AFTRA and the 4A’s. Or any other area.

Do you just want an echo chamber of people on this website sharing your opinion.

“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”.

Let’s show those First Cult mooks how much we’ve learned.

Please.

You have to learn to vet stuff yourself and not just parrot the MF talking points. They’re usually wrong.

Kathy, my statement means exactly what you stated. I am aware of the waiting periods. I am also aware that the period can be shorter that two years if the contract has expired, when workers vote to decertify.

I know that the cast of Kyle X Y was considering a decertification vote recently. So its not unprecedented. The cast of the “Bold and the Beautiful” also wanted out from under AFTRA jurisdiction but they reportedly didn’t know that you couldn’t just switch unions.